The Wicked Podcast

Julia Shalet: The Really Good Idea Test

March 23, 2021 [email protected] Episode 38
The Wicked Podcast
Julia Shalet: The Really Good Idea Test
Chapters
The Wicked Podcast
Julia Shalet: The Really Good Idea Test
Mar 23, 2021 Episode 38

We talk to Julia Shalet about the 7 practical steps to test your idea and find out if it is worth pursuing. A simple and accessible way everyone.

Author page: http://www.productdoctor.co.uk
Book page: http://amazon.co.uk/Really-Good-Idea-Test/dp/129232709X/

The Wicked Podcast:
Support us on Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/thewickedpodcast
The Wicked Podcast website: http://www.thewickedcompany.com/podcast/
'The Wicked Company' book on Amazon.co.uk: https://www.amazon.co.uk/WICKED-COMPANY-When-Growth-Enough-ebook/dp/B07Y8VTFGY/
The Wicked Company website: https:www.thewickedcompany.com

Music:
'Inspired' by Kevin MacLeod
Song: https://incompetech.filmmusic.io/song/3918-inspired
License: http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by/4.0/

Show Notes Transcript

We talk to Julia Shalet about the 7 practical steps to test your idea and find out if it is worth pursuing. A simple and accessible way everyone.

Author page: http://www.productdoctor.co.uk
Book page: http://amazon.co.uk/Really-Good-Idea-Test/dp/129232709X/

The Wicked Podcast:
Support us on Patreon: https://www.patreon.com/thewickedpodcast
The Wicked Podcast website: http://www.thewickedcompany.com/podcast/
'The Wicked Company' book on Amazon.co.uk: https://www.amazon.co.uk/WICKED-COMPANY-When-Growth-Enough-ebook/dp/B07Y8VTFGY/
The Wicked Company website: https:www.thewickedcompany.com

Music:
'Inspired' by Kevin MacLeod
Song: https://incompetech.filmmusic.io/song/3918-inspired
License: http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by/4.0/

Marcus Kirsch:

Welcome to the wicked podcast where we read the business books you don't have time for. I'm Marcus Kirsch. And I'm Troy Norcross. And we are your co hosts for the wicked podcast.

Troy Norcross:

Record here record their record everywhere. This is all the joys of doing this in new technology and multiple sources of video, right?

Marcus Kirsch:

Sure. Always fun.

Troy Norcross:

Right? And then what were you saying? Just for you record? I know, lights, camera and action x. Oh, what are your actions for today? And who are we talking to today?

Marcus Kirsch:

So we're talking to Julia shallow, or shallow. We're

Troy Norcross:

not we're talking to Julia salade

Marcus Kirsch:

really challenged me and my friends. And her beautiful book, the really good idea test, which is just brilliant. But you tell me your actions, your insights, your takeaway away? Go try?

Troy Norcross:

Well, I think it was really interesting to watch her tell stories. And she was talking about making hypotheses and deciding which ones were high risk and which ones were low risk. And she actually put her hands, you know, on our diaphragm saying I feel risk in my gut. And I really wish more people would pay attention to their gut, because they would know when they were making a risky assumption or when they were trying to do something. So my first action that I would recommend clients is pay attention to your gut and pay attention to the guts in in your teams, because they have gut instincts. And they're, they're actually quite good. The other one is, we talked about testing and doing hypothesis testing for our product. And this is not something that happens at day zero in the lifestyle of an idea, this can be done throughout the lifecycle of a product, little tests regularly will ensure that you're going in the right direction, and that you don't need to pivot. And those are my two actions that I'd recommend for my clients. What about you?

Marcus Kirsch:

Yeah, so I'll go with probably even so I love the pivoting thing, because I think it's substantial for organisations these days to allow for pivots. And a lot of them don't, because there's investment set, and we got to go now and we got to do it now, despite one's face. And, essentially, but but what I really wanted to point out is something maybe even a bit simpler, because she said that at the very end. But you could hear it all throughout. In the way the book is written, it tells you as well, this is simple. This is not rocket science, you don't need a heavy scientific research, you don't need to pay 1000s and 1000s of pounds to researching companies, sorry, researching companies, but this is what everyone can do. There's plenty of stuff on the internet, there's plenty of ways to get to step out of the office. I know we're not on the office these days anymore, but to look and talk face to face to your customer. There's no excuse anymore. There's some industry, of course, where there's certain legislation that makes it harder to be allowed to talk to them as a certain company, fine. But I've worked in those industries. There's ways around this. So there's no excuse to get close to your customer anymore. Anyone who doesn't do it, is risking their money, and they're not going to survive. So my takeaway my action is, enable your teams today, allow them say it's alright for you to get up, stand up from your chair today. Go over either to the other room, or pick up the phone and talk to your customer. Simple, right? And then obviously track it and do all the research and find the insights. And so my first thing is, as an organisation, tell your people, they can do this now. And they can do this within a few hours, they will get results quick. As a little second one, I would say when you do that, really listen to it. So I've heard it too often, where managers and bosses when I hear about we're not going to do that we're going to focus on upselling. And research came back and people said, but people don't want us if I don't care, we need to go where the money is. Yeah, but if you argue like that, you go where your boss's opinion is, you don't go where the money is because the money isn't there because the customers don't want it. You got to spend some time you spend some money and you got to get no return on it. So let people pivot again. So those are my two actions. But right I see like,

Troy Norcross:

you're really really good. Yeah. What was I about to say?

Marcus Kirsch:

Go to the interview, or do you want to do one enlightening interview? Let's go to the interview. So Hello everyone. Today we have Julia shallot with us and how to pronounce it right? before. It's me and my German Hello, Julia, and thanks for being with us.

Julia Shalet:

Hello, thanks so much for having me.

Marcus Kirsch:

So and as usual, we start from the top. So please tell our listeners a bit who you are and why you wrote your book.

Julia Shalet:

Okay, so my sort of business name, if you like, is product doctor. And the idea being that I've spent a lot of my career managing products through the life cycle, and also helping other people and to do the same. So the sort of product from from birth from inception, right the way through to death, if you like, and I'm a part time a product person who has managed to sort of realise quite early in my career, that there is great value in really engaging with your end customers and users directly yourself, particularly in the early ideas stage, which happens at any point during the life cycle. And so in the various incarnations of what I'd done independently as product doctor and working for big corporates, and startups and third sector projects, and I've discovered my own way of doing things. And I've also worked with a lot of other innovators people with ideas, and shared my practices and tools and tips. So much so that I thought, My God, I've got a kind of formula here. And I've got a lot of things that work and don't work all based on my own experience working with these kind of hundreds and probably 1000s of ideas, and running so many research conversations and sessions, that I thought it was definitely time to document them in a book. And it actually was a way of, in a sense, saving me from repeating myself, because I can say, Oh, go to page 102, because it's in there. So that's the essence of how I came to write the book.

Troy Norcross:

And tell us what is what is your nickname? What was your nickname that you referenced in the book? What my product killer

Julia Shalet:

my naughty nickname, yes product, it was product killer. And it was really interesting that came quite early in the in the stage of my, in the stages of my products career when I had a portfolio of products. And I was very keen to sort of like the death card in the Tarot pack, you know, it's you're actually releasing energy for something new so far better to kind of murder off those those products that aren't performing and actually put all those resources back into energise the product lifecycle for those that are back and find ways to you know, catch those new new ideas before your revenues fall off. So that was a joke name of the product kill I think she comes.

Marcus Kirsch:

Yeah, it's it's, it's, you can tell the book speaks from experience, and it's beautifully detailed and has so much so much richness in there. And it's a book that everyone should read. But as those kind of books go, it's probably gonna have to fight the Dunning Kruger effect, where you know, the people who probably need it most will will less likely know that they needed. So So what do you have for for people like that, who think that they have sort of their way of going about ideas? And what do you usually tell them when when you arrive?

Julia Shalet:

Well, it's interesting, I can hand on heart tell you that every single customer or use industry that I have carried out in the last 15 years of doing this, right, I have learned something new, I have learned something that I did not expect to hear. Okay, and I'm looking at new ideas all the time, I'm very plugged in, to kind of you know, what people want to need and how they're going to behave. But I always learn something new. And I can give you some really great examples of that. And particularly around is always an interesting one that comes up the the competitors that you think you've got, are in the customer or users mind different to the competitors that they say You've got right. So one thing I always talk about is that a customer, let's say a being the person who gives you the money is going to have a pot of money that they're prepared to spend, right? Now that pot of money could be on something that you've got to offer them. Or it might be something completely different that falls into the category that they would spend that money on. So you think let's say you're I don't know, a mobile phone company, for example, right? You think you're competing against other mobile phone companies, right, and you think they're going to spend more with you on this kind of high end phone, or whatever it is, when actually, that's almost a luxury budget they've got, and they'd rather buy something, you know, physical for their office, like, subscribe to a lovely monthly flower provider, you know, for example, your competitors aren't necessarily those you think they are. So my, my big point to people is, if I can learn something new from every interview, so can you It's full of surprises.

Troy Norcross:

And I think that's really, really good. And it's absolutely true, that actually talking to the people who are your customers, and you make a nice differentiation between customers and users. In the book. I think when I read this book, and I think about, if I go back in history, Marcus and I met in London, at a place called the innovation warehouse. And every Wednesday, we would say, between four and five startups come and pitch to us. And the number of people that were so kind of caught up in the river of denial, that their idea was unique, and it was special, and it was perfect. And it always could have survivor bias, like all but nobody said 140 characters of text would ever turn into a business like Twitter, either. There are people like that, who desperately need your book that I'm not sure we'll ever want to read it, because it would burst their bubble. What do you say to those people?

Julia Shalet:

Well, unfortunately, I think it's the fear cell at that point. It's the you have got all this incredible energy and drive and ambition. Right? How are you going to feel if that fails? Because you did not take a couple of weeks, right? At various points in your development of your idea to just stop and check. You know, it's the deflation. And I think, you know, really, when you talk about the motivation as well of writing this book, that was one of my biggest motivators, I Hate Waste, right? I'm the sort of person who goes into the fridge and goes, right, you know, and I'm a creative cook, I'll cook with what's there. And I'm reasonably successful with it. But I detest waste and seeing that energy and drive and passion wasted, because they're delivering something that people didn't want or need or desire, or there was already something that did the job, or, oh, they love it, but they're not prepared to spend money, if you're not prepared to download it, they can't integrate it people systems, processes, you know, all of those actions that you need people to take all those things that need an evidencing. And people think, to your point, Troy that they have a brand new idea, no one's ever done it before. Now, there is no such thing as a new idea, I'm gonna I can prove it, you throw anything at me. Because there's always it's always a better way of doing something they're already do, you're achieving, you know, the same result, they're just going about it a different way better, faster, quicker, more environmentally friendly, whatever it is. So, yeah, I think that's probably Those are probably my selling points on that.

Marcus Kirsch:

When you when you talk about that, you know, what comes up a lot and and it's in your process, as well as obviously assumptions. And I love that because of my service design, design thinking background, you know, I like to treat everything as an assumption, and a lot of people should, and a lot of people don't. So tell us a bit about exactly that. So that the mindset towards assumptions and testing things and looking at things and maybe also a little bit on how you how you pull out the right kind of assumptions, because there's there's quite a lot of detail in that in the book on that. Yeah.

Julia Shalet:

So I guess where I come from, is, first of all, there's a kind of prioritisation process, right? So, the first questions, I guess, are, so why are you doing the thing that you're doing? Right? And that's where I start in the book. What are you personally trying to achieve as a goal? You know, and then what benefit are you creating for who? And why is it better than what's already there? Okay, and then the lot and that bit, by the way, sounds a bit like a value proposition. Doesn't it fit? Like write your value proposition statement? But what I'm tagging to that? Because that's the usual way you do, I promise. I'm taking two more things, as I said, firstly, your own goal, what are you actually trying to achieve? And in relation to that, let's say, for example, you're trying to make money, right? What action? Do you need that person to take? Is it to pay you money? Is it to download something? Is it just to join and start, you know, to sign up? What is it action that you're looking for them to take? And to my mind, those are all the answers to those are your first set of assumptions. And if you get any of those wrong, then you have a high likelihood of failing further down the line. Now, assumptions, then could be risky or not risky. So you might have an assumption that actually there's enough evidence for so I link evidence to assumptions. If you think you've got enough evidence, you feel quite comfortable you can I hold my stomach as my bad assumptions always hit my stomach, right. But whatever it is, whether it can see you awake at night, if that's happening, then you probably don't have enough evidence for those assumptions. If you articulate it and point to some data, and it becomes quite scientific, which which I like, then you don't have enough evidence, right? If those things also are the sorts of things that are going to pull the rug from under your business, or your new idea, then they are very high priority. So you prioritise all of those work out where your evidence is, according to the impact they have in your business, and then you know, the danger. And those are the ones you you go for first.

Marcus Kirsch:

Yeah, and I think that's very clear and dddd. In my experience, what happens a lot is that you cannot very often actually find things that are wrong assumptions. But then it's great if you have the right assumptions, and everything goes smoothly. But when you get the wrong ones, the question I often find an organisation is, can you actually pivot? Are you allowed to pivot? Can you go back and say, you know, we're all wrong, we've got to do something, literally something quite big out here, you know, because a lot of companies have product or service strategies to have investment or you've banked on something. And often the mindset is not quite there. What can you do in such circumstances in those contexts, when you when you have to go back and say, listen, we've got this wrong, but there's something else we can do, or we have to go for the back?

Julia Shalet:

Yeah. So I think the first thing to say is that, of course, this process for testing out new ideas, and finding assumptions and really carrying out some, some customer and user interviews off the back of it, to check them, this whole process can happen at any stage in the lifecycle, right. So even if you've got a product, that's, you know, out there doing brilliantly, and you think you might have to, you might want to add a new feature, or you've got a plan that says, Okay, I'm going to move this into a new market, or at whatever stage it is, and whatever you're doing, and they're all new ideas. So I do want to say that because a lot of people think this is just about the early stage of a brand new idea. It's not. It's about marketing plans and features. It's about, you know, changes to customer service, and processes and all sorts of things. So I should just give that backdrop. And my answer, your question really has to come back to something cultural. So for businesses, and I've worked in this area, with large businesses, and it's about I guess, we all know, the teaching of, you know, design thinking and so on, and the fact that we want to build, measure and learn and be very iterative in our approaches, right? So this isn't anything new. But it's very sensible. Okay. So if you can get test these things, early enough, before you actually spend money developing or doing them, whether it's briefing your marketing agency, to develop your creative or whatever it is, right, then your management team or decision makers should get to a point where they expect they almost expect you to be changing, right? Because you're constantly checking and no one can be right and no one's hypotheses and assumptions can all be correct. People aren't that good. We're not that good. Right? So it should be an accepted practice. But even more so because you haven't actually spent any money going down that path. Right? So if when you start spending money, sure you're going to find out things and that they should be small and manageable kind of pivots. Right?

Troy Norcross:

But Julia, I mean, I'm gonna put my devil's advocate hat on, and I'm going to say, How am I supposed to run research? I mean, I can't be asking 10,000 different people, you know what I should or should not do? I mean, and it comes back to this age old question about research and sample size. How many is too many? And how many is too few?

Julia Shalet:

Yeah. So in my book, I suggest you do five, I suggest you start with five. Okay, so five people in a particular segment, right? So let's say you have a product or service that spans from your 18 year olds to 18 year olds, you don't put them in the same segment, you know, they're different segments, right? So I suggest just five for each segment. And you may well find, as I have often in research that, you know, four out of five, three out of five, is enough to give me confidence, right, that I'm going the right direction. If all the people in that group are like no, then you know that, you know, there's something wrong, but it's something rather than nothing, right? And then you decide based on how much m Iman money you're going to put in how many you go to. But I'm I'm deliberately suggesting it's a small and a toad IQ. And this is not full on big scale market research. It's quick idea testing to check that your assumptions are right, so that you can move, move on quickly, to you know, to move the thing forward, and at least you're doing something right.

Troy Norcross:

Yeah, so it is it is indeed, as you say, incremental steps. And even if it's a small subject size, or small sample size of subjects, it's doing it right. And you have an entire chapter dedicated in the book, to doing the market research. And it sounds like this is something you've got a lot of history. And it's not just kind of the product side of things, but it's really the market research side of things. Can you tell us one of your most interesting stories about something either you learned or a particular product that might be useful that we could use when we talk to our clients about the importance of doing these kinds of things? Because what we try to say on the weekend podcast is we want to give the listeners actionable insights, and a really good use case or a really good story from you, when would be helpful?

Julia Shalet:

Okay, I have a few. And the first one I'll tell you, and I'm saying it all the time at the moment, is that I had a client who wanted to test out what they were calling a virtual a level. What that is, and this is pre lockdown. What that meant is that people would be able to study the a level online. But in research people said, if it's a virtual qualification, does that mean I didn't get it? Right. It's not

Marcus Kirsch:

real. It's

Julia Shalet:

it's not real. Right? So call it a level of online qualification, you know, really super interesting. And the other thing that was fascinating about that, and this was pre lockdown, which makes it so interesting to me, is that the, the premise was that they'd want to do it was for, you know, a level age students that 1718 year old, who could study a sub that wasn't offered at their school. So the thought was, it would be a smaller subject, like, you know, would work, let's say, right, it's not a very common If it isn't, it was not very common animal, right. And their schoolwork or college weren't going to offer it as the premise, what we found out was that some students had a positive preference to take a subject, whatever that was, and study it online. So they were saying, actually, and I keep hearing this around me, I've really enjoyed studying online. It's actually been really nice to have my own space. I prefer to study that way than earning stuff out of choice, not because I've been excluded from school, not because I have emotional issues that mean that I don't enjoy the school experience of not for those reasons, out of choice. Isn't that interesting?

Marcus Kirsch:

Huh?

Julia Shalet:

All those assumptions,

Troy Norcross:

it's very hard

Julia Shalet:

to frame that. That's just one. One example I can think of. I have another if you'd like.

Marcus Kirsch:

Yeah. Please, please go. I can. You know, yeah, please.

Julia Shalet:

One of my favourites and I'm going to go back in time and then I'm going to bring it to modern day. Modern day It sounds like it was 200,000. Back in the 80s. I first started doing this. And I have a particular formula that I've not seen it I hadn't seen anyone else do at the time. And what I did was I was involved with a lot of people in mobile in the early days where the app stores opened up, right. And all of a sudden, you didn't have to remove by an operator to get your products to market to get your app to market. Right. So back in the day, I was the one at one of my jobs, that mobile operator was the person you pitch to. So Shazam actually pitched to me. And we were the first ones to give them an access code, which was a voice style four digit code to to reach our customers and festivals in the UK. Anyway, point is the app stores open up and all these developers and it's very hot at the time, you know, I use the word trendy, or creating apps, and they're able to put them on the Android, the Google Store, and on the Apple store, and fantastic the whole kind of, you know, ecosystem has turned on its head. And it's good. It's democracy, we like that. However, there was a real lack, in my opinion of, and this kind of customer and user focus, right, because they're coming from a coding background from a development from an engineering background from an IT background. And so I started to kind of wanted to flush this out. And I put a group of teenagers on stage at a number of different conferences, where a lot of these developers were going, one of them in particular. And I would ask the attendees of the conference beforehand, who wants to who's brave enough, you know, to put their products and it happens to be for the team sector for the team sector, to my panel, and I'd have a number of volunteers and they'd come in and pitch their product. So there's a guy who comes in, he's invented a mobile game. And it was a multiplayer game. This is early days, right? This is quite novel. So the idea was, you take your phone, you go into the park with your friends, right? And you start to play this game. And these teenagers said, his panel said, Look, you know, number one is a bit on call at really want to, like, be walking around the park is on call to be holding my mobile. Okay, the second guys said, safety security, this thing's gonna get taken out of my hand, I'm not advertising it, Hey, take my mobile, you know, not not so bright. And the one of the other things that the panel came up with, was that they just had a new PlayStation at home, they've got nice, big television screen, Why the hell would I want to play again, friends on the city info screen, when I can sit in the comfort of my home, play these marvellous games. Isn't that interesting. So that kind of concept was kind of smashed. But then fast forward, fast forward 10 years, and look at Pokemon Go. So the point there, and it's something to your, as you're talking to me about your audience is look, you know, just because there was an attitude of something previously doesn't mean that attitude hasn't changed. And I think, right now looking at what's gone on over the past year, do I need to say pandemic, you know, we have changed, we've changed in so many ways. So what you thought before pandemic, or even during might be different after and that's why it's so important to keep checking and checking. Without overkill, and without it being too burdening.

Troy Norcross:

In 2001, I moved for the very first time from San Francisco to Amsterdam. And I was working for a company called Open wave open wave systems. I don't know if you knew them or not. They were pretty big and, and mobile that that was the kind of MMS messaging. You know, how big of a flop that turned out to be? But now we're sending pictures everywhere, all day, every day.

Unknown:

That's right. It's

Troy Norcross:

just your exact same palming.

Julia Shalet:

Yes, yes. It's so funny. You mentioned that because I use that as a case study. I work with some master's students actually at UCL recently on there, and telecoms and masters. And I give an example of a whole kind of marketing plan for MMS to get it going. And because I was responsible for it at the time, and I actually took MMS from we were number three or four market share overall, but number one in the amount of MMS messages we said, and let me tell you a really fascinating thing. And this is actually we did a lot of user research, right but we didn't unfocused a bit observation and we saw a lot of photographs being taken but not sent. Right. And, you know, why was that and there are a number of reasons and that's a whole other podcast and an example. But the fascinating thing is that I always work very collaboratively cross functionally. So I went around to all the people who were supporting me as the owner of the NMS revenue stream. And the data analyst said, right, we've been into the call day data records. And we've discovered that these messages 80% of gifts, not JPEGs. What that meant was that people weren't, it wasn't about sending photos that wasn't driving the revenue, it was about the funny animated content, the gifts that we all use today, are only gifts, right? So I found a content provider who had created little character called an emo. And he moved around, and he got the emotion of whichever expression he was trying to bring to life. And I flooded the market, with the people with cameras with the capabilities, send them on the MLS. And said, right, have a couple of free messages on us. And here's a load of content, you know, and off it went. So it's so funny that these things at one point, and turn into, you know, the and this spam saying that the need is there a need to communicate and express emotion, Oh, my gosh, she knows it's social networks and broadcast. And already, we've seen it, we've seen that happening, and it's there. So all of these things are just better ways to do something we always wanted to do. You know, I have so many fun stories. Picture messaging itself. We were asked to innovate.

Marcus Kirsch:

Classic, I think once you dig into that, it's Yeah, I think when to dig into that, there's, there's those stories everywhere, because it's I I'm always amazed how, how wrong so many assumptions really aren't that how so many organisations run with so many assumptions, you know, but on on even a simple level, you know, we had things where I worked on a project with a bank who wanted to be more like munzo, because they believe that opening up your account very quickly is an amazing thing that everyone wants. And when we did the research on this very simple little level, came back that customers don't care don't see it as a value, not anymore. They are interested in other things way more than, you know, if it opens the day after I don't care. So it's like, okay, so you don't even have to improve that spend your money on something else. And I think this is one of those things where organisations can learn a lot from doing this more and spending their money more wisely and actually learning way more about the customers on that. Yeah. So and having having said that, sorry, yeah.

Julia Shalet:

I was gonna talk to your points on evidence, but I don't want to put your your what you're saying?

Marcus Kirsch:

Ah, thanks. It's good to have a co host. I should have done this by myself. I'm just saying to. As always, we we, you know, we have more questions than we have time. So we have to slowly wrap up with last question, but I'd like to give you to expand a bit more on the evidence aspect, because I think that's, that's definitely an interesting aspect if you if you wanted to elaborate on that.

Julia Shalet:

So that said, that story, you know, just told about, and picture messaging, and about looking at the data. So it's really common pitfall as well, that a mistake that people make, and I have a chapter in the book about No, identify your receipt gathering evidence. And, and what I say is, you know, I, you know, I bet a lot of the time that this evidence already exists, right? So have a really good look and have a, you know, have a really good look on the internet, in the web. And we never know what you might find, because people tend to publish so much, for example, about things that haven't worked and why things haven't worked, you know, and that is a brilliant clue, learning from failure as a brilliant clue. And what about people certainly in in companies in your organisation? Oh, my goodness, there is so much information in pockets all over the organisation, you know, and it's like this data analysts who had all the access to all the core data records, and I could see what was going on. That was incredible evidence. And it's only when once you've said, okay, have I got all the evidence? Where can I go? Who can I ask, especially in the company who's got this, who's got that, and when you find you don't have it, then you have to go and get it and go and get it yourself within within with my book in just a couple of weeks. It's simple, it's quick, it's not full on big research. It's very focused, very targeted, you know, but the point about evidence is really important before you go do that yourself. Even if it is quite easy to do, make sure it doesn't already exist. You might already have enough evidence to Now you're going along the right path.

Marcus Kirsch:

Yeah, nothing dude, these are that great, great words to wrap up on on evidence. There's just so much in this book. And it's, I think everyone should read this book. And because a lot of people can learn a lot from it, and I think for other people, it's it's just even so much more detail in there even for someone like me who's done customer research and done this kind of research before. It's very, very beautiful book. So I'll say thank you very much, Jr. for your time. And for all your insights today. Thank you.

Julia Shalet:

Thank you so much.

Troy Norcross:

You've been listening to the wicked podcast with CO hosts, Marcus Kirsch and me, Troy Norcross,

Marcus Kirsch:

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Troy Norcross:

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